Tim
Sebastian
Interviewed
June 24 1995
by
Ellen Evert Hopman, Co-Chief of the Whiteoak
Druid Order
at
The Red Lion pub, Avebury, England
Tim Sebastian is the ArchDruid of Wiltshire, Chosen
Chief of the Secular Order Of Druids, Conservation Officer for the Council
of British Druid Orders, and a Bard of the Gorsedd of Caer
Abiri (Avebury).
The Secular Order of Druids (SOD) is a non-hierarchical
order that aims to revive ancient tradition in a modern context. To this end
they have held Druid rituals at “raves” and have staged a series of inter-faith
councils to promote Pagan-Christian dialogue.
What does
it mean to be a Conservation Officer?
It means that I am responsible for environmental
matters such as conserving trees and conserving land. It also means that I
have an extra task which is conserving Druidic heritage in Britain.
What first
inspired you to become a Druid?
My name is Roman. Sebastian, after Saint Sebastian,
Diocletian’s plaything who found Christianity and was pierced by arrows. That’s
me. I was brought up in a Roman Catholic monastery from the age of eight until
I escaped at the age of sixteen. Thank God. My parents sent me there. I never
forgave them for it, it was a Roman Catholic boarding school. The Black Monks,
the Xavierian Brothers, who came from America, may
they rot in Hell. I forgive them now but I didn’t then.
When I chose my confirmation name I chose Saint
Sebastian because of all those times in the monastery where I really did feel
I was being pierced by arrows. When I became a Druid I chose to use my confirmation
name rather than my real name.
I have rejected Christianity on all levels other
than I think it’s a system that has as much a right to exist as we do. I believe
in the Goddess, I’d rather live under a matriarchal system than a patriarchal
system. And I also think the time is long past where we need to have these
stupid arguments about Christianity versus Paganism. It’s irrelevant in the
modern world. The world is collapsing unless we all come together and love
one another.
I was a hippie during the sixties in London. At
about 1968 I heard the Sergeant Pepper’s [Beatle] album and it blew my mind
like it did many hippies' and I became involved in my own personal mystic
quest. I found that London didn’t actually give me what I was looking for
so I came to Wiltshire and I went to Stonehenge. There I met up with a group
of people who were called the “Wallies” who had squatted Stonehenge and intended
to live there. They intended to put a roof on the place among some of the
crazy ideas they had at that time. Through living with the Wallies I became
involved in the festival movement in Britain which culminated in the Isle
of Wight festival and the Stonehenge festival. It was at the Stonehenge festival
that I first came into contact with Druids. The Stonehenge festival was held
over the Summer Solstice and we used to wonder who those strange people in
white were up at the stones. After seven years of attending Solstice festivals
and speaking to Druids I finally decided that I was a Druid.
What is
about Druidism that you find attractive?
I think it is twofold. First it is a natural religion
or philosophy that has nature as the focal point of its ritual and celebration.
Secondly because it is the old religion of our country. I found my own cultural
roots in it, something which I didn’t know existed before. I think that’s
what a lot of young people are looking for. I think that has a devastating
effect on people when they realize that they actually do have roots in history.
What do
you think about Americans, and even those with no Brithonic
or Celtic background, practicing Druidry?
I think its a system that transcends mere regional
boundaries therefore I don’t really have a problem with that. I would have
thought though that with the [American] Indian systems that you’ve got that
Americans would automatically be drawn to that. I can also see that it would
be difficult being white middle class Anglo Saxons in America. I can see why
you would be searching for your roots and then find Druidism because you do
come from that stock.
Actually
that is what many Indians would say. They see us as Europeans and as invaders,
not as Native Americans. They often resent us trying to appropriate their
religions. So we are sort of stuck in the middle. We feel like Europeans yet
we are very attracted to the Native American religions. But we can’t claim
their ancestors as our ancestors.
I would agree with the Indians. However, you can
claim Celtic ancestors if you are from British or Celtic stock.
How is
your order different from the other orders here in Britain?
We are older than a lot of them. We were founded
in 1987. You will find that a lot of them were founded well after that date.
We call ourselves The Secular Order and the reason we chose Secular above
all other words is because we do not regard ourselves as some sort of Priests
wandering around handing out religion to the populace. We do regard ourselves
as standing firmly with the populace as a whole who have aspirations for regaining
their cultural heritage. We do not stand apart from the people. We stand firmly
with the people.
Does “Secular
Order” imply that it is not a religion?
Yes, it does imply that. We don’t look at ourselves
as Priests, we look at ourselves as operating in a secular world and bringing
the word to that secular world.
What is
“the word”?
The word is that the Goddess lives. The word “secular”
means of the outer world and operating in the outer world. We don’t cut ourselves
off from the outer world. We are not exclusive, we are inclusive of everybody
in the world. It also means a time span. We believe that there is a time span
things have to be achieved in. We believe that there is a time span in which
we can capture or recapture the Celtic cultural heritage. I am not going to
say that it has to be within this period or that. But I believe that if we
don’t accomplish that within a certain period the world will lapse into the
abyss and into chaos.
You don’t
think we are there already?
No I don’t. I think we are on the edges of it.
What do
you think are the major issues facing Druidry today?
It depends where you are standing. The environmental
issues which are building in the world are definitely within the realms of
Druidism. Unless we act together with the environmentally conscious people
in this world then all the world will be lost. We must act in whatever way
we can do, that’s why my order goes to demonstrations and sits on explosives
to stop them from blowing up the country etc.
The second side is to understand the culture and
where it came from. You get this fight going on between Wiccans and Christians.
It’s not a fight that I get involved in, however I do get involved in Christianity
and sponsor conferences between Pagan and Christian groups. I was the founder of a conference that took
place over five years in a Roman Catholic monastery. It was a Pagan - Christian
conference. After five years of the Christians being hammered at by Pagans
that they were responsible for the deaths of millions of Pagans, the Christians
actually did a Mass to which they invited all the Pagans which was a Requiem
Mass for all the millions of Pagans and Witches that had been killed. For
me that was the end of the cycle. They had actually admitted their fault.
I have to say, however, that if the media or even some of the Bishops had
found out that the Requiem Mass had taken place they probably would have gotten
up in arms. There would have been terrible things to pay. Those people were
brave to do it. It means that the reestablishment of the Culdee Church is
that much nearer.
In England the history of early Christianity, the
Celtic Christian Church, the Culdee Church, is linked with the end of the
old Druidic system. But it also heralded the beginning of a new Druidic system.
The Druids are the keepers of that history. If you take the Church of England
or the Church of Rome they will never tell people about that history. Therefore
it is up to the Druids to tell people where we came from, where the Christian
Church came from and how they gained such a hold upon these isles. That is
an incredibly difficult task.
I just
came from Scotland and while I was there out of the few people I met two of
them were doing just that. One was a monk who was actively attempting to revive
Culdee Christianity. The other was a minister I met while I was looking at
a Pictish stone in a churchyard. He came over and was talking about how the
stone had Pictish symbols on one side and a Christian cross on the other and
that was the direction that the Christian church needed to go in the future.
That it needed to reclaim it’s Culdee heritage.
I would say that my own particular Order has been
at the forefront of that particular revival. We feel that it is no good for
Pagans to just go around slagging off Christians, you just end up in the same
cycle over and over again, they will just slag you off. Then we end up in
the same old cycle of conflict.
I know
that a lot of the early Culdee saints were born and raised as Druids. Do you
have any particular favorites?
Obviously the one we all look to is Saint Columba.
He was the one who said; “Jesus is my Druid, he is the one we all listen to”.
I have a few favorites, Saint Ninians, of Saint
Ninians’ well in Cornwall was a great Celtic saint.
He was beheaded by the Roman authorities and springs gushed forth from where
his body lay. There is Saint Aslhaeph who is local
to here, he is the founder of Bath Abbey in the city of Bath. He was “blood
eagled” by the Vikings on one of their many raids of the area. That is where
the lungs are ripped out and arranged on either side of the body to look like
angel wings. Once again with him springs bubbled up from where his body lay.
The whole
idea of the sacred spring and the holy water is a very Celtic idea. As you
know there are a lot of sacred springs, usually associated with Goddesses.
And yet, at least in this country, we have the
names of Christian saints implanted upon those springs. And that means something.
That is our heritage and we have to disentangle it through centuries of covering
up.
When you
look at the sacred spring you are choosing to honor the Christian saint whose
name was imposed on the spring whereas a lot of Pagans would look at the spring
and would try to honor Brighid or whichever Goddess
might have been worshipped there in the past.
Don’t get me wrong here. We understand the Pagan
symbolism of the Goddess of the Spring that is behind all of this. Not all
of the Christian saints have been imposed. Sometimes there is a reason why
that saint is there. This is exactly the area where you begin to understand
roots. You are beginning to understand why that should happen.
You could say that it is the crossover from matriarchy
to patriarchy. In this part of the world we have to get over those phrases.
We have to put them both behind us and the only way we can do that is to understand
why certain things happened in history. Then we won’t make those mistakes
again.
So we are not saying that we accept the Christian
saints and we are overlooking the Goddess. What we are saying is that we understand
the Goddess but you must look at why the early Christians did what they did.
They did it because it was incredibly important to them to gain the country.
They had to do it. They were absolutely in tune with what they had to do to
gain this country. That’s what Celtic Christianity is about as opposed to
Roman Christianity which was really the reinstating of the second Roman empire.
The Celtic Christians understood fully that they
wouldn’t get anywhere unless they understood, took part in, and generally
accepted the Celtic festival system. They understood what the Pagan sacred
days were and thus celebrated their rites at exactly the same time as the
Pagans did. And it worked beautifully until the church of Rome came up and
said; “I’m sorry, we have to move Easter”. That’s when the conflicts came
and that was when the Culdee system was persecuted.
Where
would you like to see Druidism move in the future?
America!
We already
have Druids in America.
I think it is going along the path it should go
along now. I think we are developing beautifully. As far as this country goes,
I can’t speak for other countries, I would really like the Druids to recapture
the Celtic culture and pre-Celtic culture as well, which we mustn’t forget.
We have more of a chance of capturing the Celtic
culture in understanding that English is a Bardic language. It’s not just
the Welsh and the Irish and the Scottish. The English are Celts as well. We
have it in our blood. If we can just get over those silly labels which is
best described by the label “Celtic fringe”. If we can understand that we
all come from the same source, and it doesn’t matter who we are.
We all
come from Africa don’t we?
Yes. If we can see that then we will have a better
view than if we stick in the age old nationalistic conflicts - I’m Welsh,
I’m Irish, I’m American...
When you
do “Druid ritual” what is the main point of your ritual?
There is no form. It is spontaneous. I am eclectic,
I love spontaneous ritual. I dislike reading from scripts. I think it looks
awkward to people looking on, I think it’s calculated.
But in
order for a spontaneous ritual to be very powerful and effective don’t you
have people who know what they are doing? They have to have some kind of background.
You just need one person who is a Druid. It is
the true role of the ArchDruid to be a good emcee, a master of ceremonies.
What if
you have a group of people who are totally untrained?
It works every time. If you have a good ArchDruid
or Druidess who is trained in the art of being the master of ceremonies. As
long as he knows what is going on you can control any form of chaos and anarchy
that people can come up with.
Do you
have any kind of a training program?
No. We have no form of training at all other than
if you join my order you generally become a jester first and after a couple
of years of jestering, which is not an easy role,
you then go into the inner circle.
So how
do you become a competent ArchDruid?
You don’t. There is no such thing as a competent
ArchDruid in this country as you should know from these interviews.
Well,
you have all of America listening to you...is there anything you would like
to say to them?
Keep the faith. Rock and Roll was probably one
of the better ideas that America came up with, so extend that. Music and Bardic
arts are the key to it all. Not an ArchDruid standing up and claiming anything.
Artists from all of the disciplines of art coming together in a circle will
have more effect than any ArchDruid or any group. The O.T.O.?
Forget it [Ordo Templis
Orientarum. A ritualistic magical group], it’s gone. Forget
it. It’s past. That form of occultism is over. It is up to the artists, together
with those working with the natural forces - environmentalists and people
who understand tree lore etc. Although there may be resistance, especially
in America, with the Indian [Native American] system, the Indians do have
to understand that we are Europeans looking for our roots. And we have to
understand that they have their roots. Once that gap is bridged then you will
have it. Whatever you do just continue the artistic motivation and it will
all come out right in the end. Look to the Rainbow Tribe.
Note from
Ellen:
I interviewed
most of the movers and shakers of the Druid firmament in England back in 1995,
for a book. The book has not yet been written.
Ellen Evert Hopman, herbalist, author and Druid Priestess
author of Priestess of the Forest: A Druid
Novel (due out Spring 2008)
See her books, videos and audio tapes at
http://www.celticheritage.co.uk/EllenEvertHopman
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Oak - World Druid Council
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